Libow, Schreier, & Munchausen by Proxy: Part 23 – “A First Look” at Adult MSbP Survivors

In this series of blog posts, I review the scientific works of Drs. Judith Libow & Herbert Schreier with respect to their writings on Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy (MSbP). In this post, I focus specifically on the only scientific publication the Proxy Project could find about adult survivors of MSbP. It is titled, “Munchausen by proxy victims in adulthood: a first look”, and is single-authored by Dr. Libow.

The Good

The main good about this article is that it even exists. Dr. Libow did not get much mileage out of it for her career, so it was a hard article to write, and she did it alone and got not much credit. The Proxy Project is really grateful she took this step on her own.

However, it seems it wasn’t even her idea:

Twelve adults who identified themselves as victims of childhood Munchausen by Proxy syndrome volunteered to participate in research after learning of the author’s work in this area through television or newspaper coverage. With the exception of one subject who was referred by another, all of the subjects first initiated contact.

So they wanted to be studied, and she studied them. That was nice.

What is also nice is that she included many direct quotes from them in her article. This is why we find it so useful – we can compare our own experiences to those reviewed in the article.

little girl

The Bad

The main problem with the article is the main problem with all of the work by Libow & Schreier: it is unscientific. There are scientific ways to approach a series of patients and write about them, and then there are unscientific ways.

As a clear example, Libow includes a table of data about the 12 patients – but the data are not aggregated. It is basically a list of information about each patient. In earlier posts, I cover a paper by Dr. Stirling that has a scientific approach, with useful lists and an organized thought process. My opinion is that

because this scientific orientation is missing from Libow (& Schreier’s) work, the ultimate findings they report in all their articles are of limited use.

The Ugly

The first line of Libow’s discussion is to question us:

Even before considering the question of how representative a sample this is, we are faced with the inevitable question of whether these subjects’ stories are credible.

Dr. Libow, with all due respect: How could we have made all this bizarre shit up?

For the first time in her writing, she brings up the “selection bias” problem I review earlier. Apparently, it applies to survivors, but not to the perpetrators she studies. Hm!

child yellow

Her conclusion, which has nothing to do with rescuing abused kids or treating anyone who has survived trauma, reads like psych-porn:

These findings provide a fascinating window into the personal experiences of 10 adults who report some rather extraordinary childhood experiences.

Fascinating! Extraordinary!

All I can say is: Asshole! Talk about being appropriated!

So what do we make of all this?

Check out my next blog post, where I reflect on this series and provide some take-home messages for adult survivors of MSbP.

How is MSbP handled in your community?

Do you know the mandatory reporting laws and policies for MSbP abuse in your jurisdiction or the healthcare facility where you work? Please comment on our blog and share your experience!

Photo of young girl outside by Skitterphoto. Image of girl with a teddy bear by Alexas_Fotos.


14 thoughts on “Libow, Schreier, & Munchausen by Proxy: Part 23 – “A First Look” at Adult MSbP Survivors

  1. Encouraging the scapegoating of a child. Demonstrating that often a marriage stays together by lies put forth at the expense of a child. Listen to Rick and Kay Warren and see how with their idiotic and fatalistic belief system they left their youngest son Matthew no reasonable choice except suicide.

    This has a great deal of similarity with the guy I helped to put into San Quentin, sexually molesting his daughters, but with the son, convincing him that he suffered from “Mental Illness” and needed to be on mind destroying drugs for the rest of his life. And doing all of this with the complete backing of his Pentecostal church.

    Please help in the fight against Rick Warren and his Hope For Mental Health ministry!

    Best doctors, best therapists, best prayer warriors, but still not to be healed.

    What therapy does is convince people that they are the source of their own problems!

    Rick Warren explains how his son Matthew was effected this way, and so wanted to die, right now. At about 15 min into the interview!

    Peter Breggin, author of “Toxic Psychiatry”, has told us that people who are depressed are depressed because they have depressing lives. But Therapy, Recovery and Healing try to convince people that they themselves are the reason for their own suffering. And what can be the result of this?

    Warren says that you don’t need explanations, explanations don’t comfort, you don’t need to know why. This would mean that his son Matthew should not try and understand why and how he is being used, exploited, and abused. Rather he should just listen to his therapists, doctors, and prayer warriors.

    So eventually Matthew said he was never going to be healed, and so he wanted to go to heaven right away.

    Kay Warren speaking at Orange County Psychiatric Association. Says psychiatrists abandoned Matthew in hospital. Well unless someone had already convinced Matthew that he was sick in the head, he would have been jumping up and down cheering.

    Rick and Kay Warren should each be charged with Murder 1.

    Please help in the fight to stop Rick and Kay Warren and their Hope For Mental Health Ministry!



  2. Encouraging the scapegoating of a child. Demonstrating that often a marriage stays together by lies put forth at the expense of a child.

    Please help in the fight against Rick Warren and his Hope For Mental Health ministry!


    Would take the profit and bragging motive out of middle-class child abuse:


  3. Nomadic,

    Thank you for keeping up with us! I’m sorry, I’ve been busy and I haven’t been able to respond, but your insight really is appreciated.

    What you are saying is often echoed by Kent on our team. He came from a family in the “religion industry” – and probably would agree with what you are saying, given the horrible experiences he had being a child of the “religion industry”.

    You make great points about institutions in your comments: The middle class family institution, the religious institution, etc. I think about what you say, and I wonder: What’s the alternative?

    Let’s way we dismantle these institutions. There seems to be a demand for them, because they grow up again! It’s like taking drug dealers off the street – if people want drugs and are willing to pay, more dealers will replace them. After one bad church or bad “treatment” center is closed, another pops up. Do you have any insight into what the solution is?




      This Rick Warren, founder of the Saddleback Church in Orange County California, seems to be the one who has gone the furthest, in unifying the objectives of Psychotherapy, Psychiatry, Psychiatric Medications, Recovery, Motivationalism, and Salvation Seeking. And whereas most evangelicals send out people to proselytize, this guy has a program to train “counselors”, that he sends out, and they have “donated” 50,000 hours of counseling time, as of 2011. So his trademark thesis is, “Everybody needs Recovery.”

      I say this is a monumental threat to life, liberty, and happiness!

      And now he has some sort of a Mental Health Ministry.

      If Warren is like other evangelicals, his sermons and his writings will be saturated with accounts of all the troubles he has had with his youngest son Matthew, and of all the Christian Pity he has shown, not unlike the writings of the Pentecostal Daughter Molester I helped to put into our state prison.

      I say that Warren’s preaching and sermons are likely to contain enough to at least destroy his credibility, if not get a criminal conviction.

      Imagine if instead of Recovery, Therapy, and proving that we can comply with the Self-Reliance Ethic and hence are accepting the views of our parents, we the Survivors of the Middle-Class Family finally decided to organize and stand up for ourselves. We could make substantial political and legal change.

      We could organize our own foster care group home. What he have today is horrid, because otherwise it would undermine the justifications behind the middle-class family. But our group home will be superb. It would have some similarity to an Israeli Kibbutz.

      You will never eradicate the middle-class family, and I would never want to try. But you can neutralize its effects, simply by making sure that children are not private property and have rights, and that they always have other places to go and other people looking out for them, and then by holding parents fully accountable anytime there is any kind of a problem.

      Doctors who put kids on psych meds should be tried in International Court for Crimes Against Humanity. This way they cannot invoke the Adolph Eichmann defense, saying they were following the law. And doctors who market a Fix My Kid service to parents, but don’t report to CPS, should be convicted of felonies in our own courts, and incarcerated.

      And we should educate everyone as to the fallacy of Psychotherapy, and how what it amounts to is people disclosing their personal affairs to someone who is not a Comrade, but is a Commiserator. What they give you is not empathy, it is pity. They are committed to the premise that it is morally superior to tune out and practice the denial system of Live and Let Live. So always, with zero exceptions, Psychotherapy is Second Rape.

      And we can educate people as to the chemical assault which is Psychiatric Medications. These drugs are wrong because they are used to do the same thing which Psychotherapy does, dissociate people from their feelings. So it is wrong to manufacture and distribute the drugs. It is wrong to conduct tests with them, giving out the drugs, giving out placebos, or to be testing people for their depressive or suicidal tendencies. What the drugs and the studies do is try to convince people that the reason for their distress lies entirely between their own two ears.

      So there is only one piece of information people need to know about these drugs, and that is that they are water soluble and so you can dump them into the toilet.

      And then we, the Survivors of the Middle-Class Family, which will also include the overwhelming majority of the Survivors of Psychotherapy and Psychiatry, want anyone who has been given psychiatric medications to call our legal arm, because we will act.


      Please Join:


    • We must mobilize and stop this guy!

      Matthew Warren, another casualty of the Evangelical Movement. This Rick Warren is extremely creepy, and dangerous.

      This Rick Warren, founder of the Saddleback Church in Orange County California, seems to be the one who has gone the furthest, in unifying the objectives of Psychotherapy, Psychiatry, Psychiatric Medications, Recovery, Motivationalism, and Salvation Seeking. And whereas most evangelicals send out people to proselytize, this guy has a program to train “counselors”, that he sends out, and they have “donated” 50,000 hours of counseling time, as of 2011. So his trademark thesis is, “Everybody needs Recovery.”

      I say this is a monumental threat to life, liberty, and happiness!

      And now he has some sort of a Mental Health Ministry, helping people to abuse their children.

      If Warren is like other evangelicals, his sermons and his writings will be saturated with accounts of all the troubles he has had with his youngest son Matthew, and of all the Christian Pity he has shown, not unlike the writings of the Pentecostal Daughter Molester I helped to put into our state prison.

      I say that Warren’s preaching and sermons are likely to contain enough to at least destroy his credibility, if not get a criminal conviction.

      Here is his ministry, HOPE

      They even have a starter kit. This is extremely dangerous, getting more people to believe in mental illness, and on to the Recovery and Salvation Bandwagon. If it is not already this way, most of the people in the churches which go with this will have a scapegoat child!!

      Must collect evidence and get these people charged, convicted, and incarcerated.



    • As a way of opposing all of the Murphy bills, how about if we offer our own bill? Of course we will need to have members of the legislature, the House of Representatives, because it will be some kind of a spending bill, introduce it. But to get that we first have to come up with the basic ideas of the bill.

      The bill probably would rescind the more problematic components of all of the versions of the Murphy bills. But more importantly, it advances a completely different interpretation of the issues. So if people accept our view, then they won’t likely be supporting any of the Murphy bills, or anything else like that.

      Now some have offered pro-mental health / recovery / therapy anti-Murphy talking points. That’s the way of Uncle Tom. I am completely opposed to that.

      Others have suggested developing anti-mental health anti-Murphy talking points. I support that fully. But how about going a step further, actually offering a counter plan. So it is not just a different philosophy, it is an actual plan that people can sign on to.

      Remember that SCOTUS has decided that we cannot retroactively extend criminal SOLs, but we can retroactively extend civil SOLs.

      Now some of this probably is already covered under existing law, but it just hasn’t been interpreted or enforced this way. Even before there is new legislation, we should start trying to enforce existing law this way.


      1. Parents or other caretakers are 100% financially liable for any acts taken for the purpose of harming or otherwise psychologically injuring or incapacitating any minor child in their care. And there is no time limit or maximum dollar amount on this, and it cannot be discharged by state or federal bankruptcy. Equal share inheritance is required by law. Money can no longer be given to outside parties or distributed unequally, as that power now resides with the heirs, not the testators.

      2. The giving of medications to a child purely for the intent of altering their mood, perception of reality, or mental state, is a mid level felony.

      3. There can never be any type of forced psychological or psychiatric treatment for anyone, and no one is ever allowed to keep any records of psychological or psychiatric treatment of anyone, and this includes, but it not limited to the military, criminal justice system, and the prison system.

      4. Any kind of a doctor, therapist, worker at a youth center, or clergy, who works with a child who is showing the signs of emotional, psychological, physical, sexual, or medical abuse must report this within 48 hours to CPS and law enforcement, or they are guilty of a first level felony, enhanced by a mandatory arrest requirement.

      5. Funds must be provided for CPS and law enforcement to be able to handle this case load.

      6. There are to be funds which must be used for every place with 15k population or more to have a 24hr per day youth drop in center, where counselors will be available at all times to talk with them and to solve problems. And of course the counselors are subject to mandatory reporting, and at no time can a child be returned to a dangerous environment. Likewise there will be money for telephone hot lines to report and discuss suspected cases of medical, emotional, psychological, or physical or sexual abuse. And youth are encouraged to call this if at any time they find themselves face to face with a psychotherapist, psychiatrist, developmental disorders, or family relations counselor. That is, there has to be some outside oversight to protect the well being of the child, whenever such practitioners are brought into play.

      People have any other ideas?

      Right now the Good Family people, with their collective denial system, control most of the wealth and assets of our society, most of the high wage employment, and most of the institutions of higher learning. While we who are the Survivors of the Middle-Class Family are told that we need therapy, healing, and recovery. So what we really need to do is to organize and start fighting back.

      Psychological distress is not caused by any moral or medical problem, and we do not need healing, we need victories and vindication.

      Psychological distress is caused by being without power and by having power unfairly used against us. Any talk about therapy, healing, and recovery are just more abuse, Second Rape.

      We also should be setting up our own foster care group homes, which will in many ways resemble Israeli Kibbutzes.

      We Must Employ All Available Means To Stop Saddleback founder Rick Warren’s Mental Health and Recovery ministries!



    • I say that Matthew Warren, son of Saddleback Church founders Rick and Kay Warren, was subjected to something as powerful as a voodoo curse. Psychotherapists, Psychiatrists, and Prayer Warriors working on him, convincing him that he has something wrong with him, and letting him see that Jesus is not healing him, and leading him to believe that his only solace will come in Heaven.

      Clergy did not used to be subject to mandatory reporting, but now they are. But Prayer Warriors? No controls on them.

      Seems like the doctors and therapists in public practice do a decent job of complying with mandatory reporting. But those in private practice, when they are marketing a Fix My Kid service to the parents, of course they cannot.

      So how many Psychiatrists and Psychotherapists committed the felony of failing to report in a suspected case of child abuse?

      Kay was mad, because she said a Psychiatrist “abandoned Matthew in the hospital.” Well I feel that the guy still had some shred of human decency, and so even though he didn’t report, he still did not want to become personally involved in a human sacrifice.

      If Matthew were separated from his parents, full parent-ectomy, I am sure that he would have lived. If he could see that our society does not tolerate what his parents were doing, but instead punishes it, then he would have thrived. And if he could have been involved in efforts to protect other children, and to hold the parents responsible, then he would have been victorious.

      But as it stands, Matthew did alleviate his suffering and exempt himself from the voodoo curse style of death he was being subjected to, by a pistol shot to the head. And Rick and Kay will continue, as they are now, milking this for all it is worth, for the rest of their lives.

      These people believe that “Depresssion” and “Mental Illness” are concrete objective reality, just like with their other idol, ~S~A~T~A~N~.

      Here, one of their conferences, showing this way of thinking:

      Please help in the fight to stop Rick and Kay Warren and their Hope For Mental Health Ministry, an entity designed to promote child abuse, and help to get each Warren charged with murder in the first degree over how they drove their son Matthew to his death.

      This would take the profit and bragging motive out of middle-class child abuse, I want to call it Matthew’s Law.


    • Matthew’s Law

      A proposed law, offered in part as a counter to the Rep. Tim Murphy bills. Offered in recognition of how Matthew Warren was driven to his own death, a casualty of Evangelical Movement.

      His parents, Saddleback co-founders, Rick and Kay Warren. Matthew, subjected to Psychotherapists and Psychiatrists, plus Prayer Warriors, all working to convince him that he had a mental illness, no doubt driven to put an end to his own suffering in the only way he could. Very much like using a voodoo curse to kill someone.

      Rick and Kay Warren milking this for all it is worth, and helping others to do the same things to their children.

      Hope for Mental Health

      No shame in medication

      More about the death and the Warrens.

      This proposed law would take the profit and bragging rights out of middle-class child abuse. It would incarcerate doctors who give psychiatric medications to children. It would make those psychotherapists and psychiatrists who ignore mandatory reporting in cases of suspected child abuse, face mandatory arrest.

      Please join in the fight to stop Rick and Kay Warren and their Hope For Mental Health ministry.

      Please write to Orange County California DA Tony Rackauckas, and ask that this supposed suicide be fully investigated, and that all the Psychotherapists and Psychiatrists who violated mandatory reporting, be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. With intervention Matthen Warren would be alive and doing fine today.

      And then of Rick and Kay Warren, they must be fully investigated, and if this is as it appears, then they must each be charged and prosecuted for murder in the first degree.


    • What do you think about the 2013 suicide by gunshot to the head death of 27yo Matthew Warren. He was the youngest son of Rick and Kay Warren, co-founders of the Saddleback Church in Orange County California. In just a few decades they have built their church to over 20,000 members and they claim now to have satellite congregations all around the world. Just like Jim and Tammy Baker before them, they are known for broadening the appeal of the evangelical movement. While not openly pentecostal, if you look over some of their stuff, you can see that more than anything else, it is a belief system based upon motivationalism plus compulsory denial and epic scale doses of hope.

      Rick Warren: ‘Mental illness took my son’s life…

      Rick Warren: Son was not afraid to die

      Rick Warren: We were just sobbing
      “The day that I had feared might happen, one day, since he’d been born, and the day that I’d prayed would never happen, happened.”

      Rick Warren: My son wanted my help to get gun

      Interview with Rick and Kay Warren | Leadership Conference 2014, Royal Albert Hall

      Both parents say that Matthew struggled with mental illness for his entire life. Kay is very distressed because “a psychiatrist abandoned Matthew when he was in the hospital.” And Rick says that shortly before taking his own life, Matthew had said that he has had the “best psychotherapists, best psychiatrists, and best prayer warriors in the world, and that he knows that he is going to heaven.”

      Rick and Kay Warren had already started the Celebrating Recovery Program, which most states are using in their prisons.

      In 2014, less than a year after Matthew’s death, they started the Hope for Mental Health ministry.

      They say they have received 10,000 letters of support from their own congregation. That would have to be at least one per family.

      Rick and Kay

      Here I think is Rick Warren at his best, “second chance grace place”, “everybody needs recovery”, “you need recovery in every area of your life.”

      At one of their workshops this Dr. Aaron Kheriaty M.D. from nearby UC Irvine talks about clinical depression and Christian faith.
      “depression is a spiritual trial”
      “chemical imbalance in the brain”
      “abandoning my usual practice of church attendance”

      I feel that their ministry serves little other purpose than encouraging medical child abuse. And so we can statistically expect that there will be huge numbers of children being told that they have mental illness, being put in talk therapy sessions, and being put on drugs.

      Has any civilized country ever prosecuted anyone for murder by psychological torture, or just for murder by voodoo?

      I know that California was the first state to outlaw the practice of sexual orientation realignment therapy upon juveniles. I see this as a huge step forward. It is not at all impossible that there was something like this operating under the surface in this Matthew Warren episode.

      I say that Rick and Kay Warren are master manipulators, and they are milking this for all it is worth.

      I want the matter investigated, and if the evidence supports it, I want Rick and Kay to each be charged with murder in the first degree.



    • Why the Anti-Psychiatry Movement needs to be changed:

      I find Mind Freedom intolerable because they encourage Psychotherapy as an ethical treatment, and in general support the concept of Recovery. While I would never attempt to outlaw Psychotherapy between consenting adults, I do still consider it to be predatory abuse, meaning a type of abuse which is targeted at those already vulnerable. So I could never in anyway even pretend to endorse them. And then on top of that, making joke out of mental illness, and using the concept of non-violence as a way to ask for pity, while our economy comes ever more to depend on social Darwinism and eugenics, and while our growing evangelical movement comes ever more to define itself by child abuse, I just will not tolerate.

      But as far as these 1982 Principles, and given that they contain none of the above problems, I support them fully, and I wish MIA was actually about that, instead of Therapy, Recovery, and Healing.

      about CAPA

      It is far less offensive than Mind Freedom, or so much of what is on MIA. But I still don’t see people standing up for themselves. I mean it is one thing to say that there is injustice. It is another to try and engage with it and do something about it. So where I live the place to protest should be in front of the County Hospital. But people should also be filing lawsuits. Even if efforts to outlaw forced treatment have not yet been effective, you still should be able to file lawsuits on a case by case basis, just as people in the US use every legal means available to block implementation of the death penalty.

      And then I am still seeing very little evidence of understanding that what the mental health hoax is really about is simply failure to comply with the expectations of the middle-class family. No recognition of the fact that in the vast majority of cases, the mental health concept, along with therapy, recovery, and healing, are simply continuations of the types of child abuse and exploitation which the middle-class family is based on. And then again, one thing to claim to see the problem, and yet another to be someone who is actually engaging with it and trying to do something about it.

      This article is extremely well written and I agree with the vast majority of it.

      But I also still stand on my original position, the Anti-Psychiatry Movement is not well defined. And no I did not read this on Wikipedia. I have not read it anywhere, because those claiming to support Anti-Psychiatry do not seem to understand the problem.

      Anti-Psychiatry is not well defined because too many of the proponents are still endorsing or advertising for Psychotherapy, Recovery, and Healing, in the face of abuse and injustice. Too many of the proponents are actively campaigning to conceal familial child abuse. And too many of the proponents seem to support the middle-class family, because they support its defining doctrine, the Self-Reliance Ethic.

      Consider, if these FixMyKid Doctors had to comply with the letter and spirit of the 1974 Child Abuse and Neglect Act, reauthorized in 2010, they would either be out of business or they’d be in prison.

      •”Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation”

      Mandatory Reporting


    • Here is my proposed federal law, countering Murphy:

      1. All forced psychiatric procedures and keeping of psychiatric records are abolished.

      2. No giving of psychiatric medications to children, now a mid-level felony.

      3. Mandatory reporting clarified and strengthened, so that doctors, therapists and others who work with children, but do not report suspected cases of child abuse, will be subject to mandatory arrest. ( Wipes out the entire FixMyKid industry, prevents the kind of medical torture Julie Gregory was subjected to. In my opinion, it would have saved the life of Matthew Warren. )

      4. Parents cannot scapegoat a child, as now they can easily be sued, and disinheritance of a child is prohibited, as it is in most all of the industrialized world. Power is transferred from the testators to the heirs. Middle-Class child abuse is no longer profitable.

      Please Join:




    Warren’s youngest son, Matthew, took his own life April 6, 2013, after years of struggling with mental illness. Almost a year after his son’s suicide, Warren launched a ministry to educate the Church on its role to help people struggling with mental illness with a Mental Illness and the Church Gathering in March 2014.[12] In the year following the suicide, Warren says that more than 10,000 people wrote to him about their struggles with mental illness within the Church.

    I say that Warren is promoting the bogus concept of mental illness and that he is promoting what the Evangelical Churches like his are already based on, child abuse and child scapegoating.

    I feel that Daniel Mackler was 100% correct when he said, “Suicide is the ultimate victory of the Family System.”


    Please Join:


    • I believe that if there were aggressive outside intervention early on, a full parentectomy, this Matthew Warren, son of Saddleback Church founder Rick Warren could have been saved from a life of grief and suicide. All the better if the son could have been publicly vindicated by seeing the assets of his parents confiscated and put into a trust for the children. I do not have evidence to show this yet, but I will be looking for it.

      Opposing the Murphy bill is inseparably linked with opposing the goals and objectives of Psychotherapy, opposing the identical goals and objectives of Psychiatry, and opposing the Fix Me and Fix My Kid industries. These are all based on the premise that people have some kind of innate moral defect.

      What is a Saddleback?

      “second chance grace place … everybody needs RECOVERY … You need RECOVERY in every area of your life.”

      Listen to this imbecile talk. I can’t take more than a few minutes of it without my blood vaporizing. But after listening some, are you surprised at all to hear that he had a son, who supposedly “struggled with mental illness”, and that two years after Rick Warren gave this talk, that 27 year old son finally took his own life by shooting himself in the head?

      And then the next year, Rick Warren starting a “Mental Health Ministry”, and receiving letters from 10,000 church members explaining how their families have “struggled with mental illness”, does that concern you?

      “Saddleback Church is a Hospital for Sinners, not a Hotel for Saints.”

      He has made needing Recovery into the new Original Sin.

      Someone writes, “I’m opposed to child molestation.”

      Great. But do you understand that most familial child abuse is done under the cover of the idea that the child is defective, and that the abuse is for the child’s own good. Of the guy I helped put into our state prison, his entire Pentecostal church was standing behind him, saying that everyone must forgive and that his daughters are liars.

      He was afraid that his children were not going to turn out like himself and the other members of his church. So with the son, they got him removed from the home and from regular high school, under the pretext that he had a ~~Brain Chemical Imbalance~~, and that he was dangerous to himself and others, and that he needed to be on mind destroying drugs for the rest of his life.

      And then with the girls, sexual molestation. And then sometimes apologizing to them the next day.

      Does it bother you that Saddleback Church has trained thousands of counselors, who go out and get people to confess their private matters to them, so that they can make them believe that the only one wrong is themselves, for not forgiving?

      Without this idea that people need to be fixed, NO MURPHY BILL. But as long as we believe that people’s problems exist only in their own heads and in their own unwillingness to forgive, then we have Psychotherapy, Psychiatry, Medications, Forced Treatment, the Murphy bill, and people like Rick Warren and his followers.

      As long people believe that their problems reside between their own two ears, and that they are supposed to forgive instead of fight, then they are rendered incapable of working for tangible results.


  5. Holy Shit, just heard about this:

    Rick And Kay Warren Launch Saddleback Church Mental Health Ministry After Son’s Suicide

    I am absolutely sure that the hard life and suicide of this young man are the direct result of the familial scapegoating and abuse which their religion runs on.

    I suspect that it is almost identical to the case with the guy I helped put into the state prison, sexually molesting the girls, while getting the boy removed and drugged on the pretext of mental illness.

    I’ve listened to Rick Warren’s online stuff, because of his influence and because I want to understand the phenomenon. He is a first class jackass and creep. He goes on and on, “Everybody needs Recovery.” He has indeed made Recovery into the new Original Sin.

    And then this son would have been made the scapegoat because he can’t live the insanity of the denial systems which their religion is.

    Oh well, that Born Again Christianity and the ideas of Recovery and Mental Illness should be fused, that just makes it that much easier to fight against it.



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